NEW BP MORPH!!!

I wouldn't even have the room anymore for morphs here. Recently with people being scared off by the aggressive behavior of most blood pythons, I've found myself with 20 blood pythons that people gave me. They thought they would be cool snakes until they got bit a couple of times. Stitches changed their minds real quick. That's actually where a lot of my stock comes from. People getting rid of snakes that were either to aggressive or to difficult to care for. I end up with a lot of hard luck animals and I'm involved with all the local animal shelters and house most of the rescued snakes. I usually move the giants (burms, retics, anacondas) to other breeders locally who are better equipped to handle the big ones.

I wanted a Blood Python, but after seeing a breeder trying to pull one out of its cage, I changed my mind. It was a very aggresive snake. Kept biting and urinating all over him. The Ivory one is very awsome though. I'll just wait until I can afford the Ball Python version though, lol.

Bloods are a pain. Especially since most of the ones I have now were farmed originally. I'm hoping after a few years of handling and breeding, I can finally breed some that aren't as aggressive. I actually have 2 short-tails that aren't aggressive at all and aren't even head shy. I would only keep a pair here for me if people weren't just giving them to me.

Whenever I get a rack I'll gladly take some tame ones off your hands. lol

Ryan,

Whatever it is that you like (confirmation etc.) someone has to do the work to produce it. With something that as many people like as albino and piebald ball pythons it is a lot of work to produce enough to go around. High initial prices are what get this work done. Even piebald going from $25,000 to $5,000 (and this is an extreme quote as females where less to start and I think plenty are still selling for over $5K) in 7 years is only an 80% drop. I don't think you are going to see a 90% drop in 3 years on anything, even a co dominant like spiders. And even if the 12 year track record of ball python morphs does get derailed tomorrow and everyone decides they want aggressive blood pythons instead a ball pythons can reproduce for at least 20 years so you have plenty of time to get your investment back and eventually provide animals for the pet trade when the price finally stabilizes, whether that is at $500 as I think or $200 per the suggestion of others.

Either way, the prices will drop. Where they drop to...nobody knows for sure. It does take work to produce them but all it takes is a few actually selling at those kind of prices before every hobbiest on the planet wants in on it and once that ball gets rolling, which it already has, prices will only continue to fall. True, they will stabilize but at what price nobody knows for sure yet. All I've really been saying is that they won't stay anywhere near where they are now. I'm not saying people will ever be into blood pythons as the next thing, people already tried that and my basement full of them now shows that people got sick of that real quick. BPs are not like bloods and are well mannered and easy to care for so their popularity will easily outlast the bloods but it will wain once a new snake fad hits. Nobody knows what that might be but it will be something eventually. Who knows, with all the anti-reptile legislation everyone seems to be trying to pass and homeowners insurance companies not wanting to cover homes with reptiles.....maybe there won't be any need to worry about this anyway. At the rate things are going...nobody will be able to own snakes in the next 20 years anyway. I dread the thought of that. The land of the free...taking more and more rights away everyday. FYI...be sure and vote if you're of age this year and every year. I won't say who to vote for because everyone has their own opinion there but do vote. Our voices need to be heard.

WOW!!! What an education I received this evening regarding ball python morphs. I was literally on the verge of sending a substantial deposit on a Jungle Pastel / Lemon phase ball python to NERD, but now am going to reconsider and wait. My daughter has rekindled my interest in snakes, and I recently purchased a Normal as a pet. He is absolutely a treat! Well, it didn't take long to come across the morphs on the internet and then I was hooked.I've spent weeks surfing the web, trying to educate myself on morphs and their genetics, etc....narrowing down my choice of purchase. Needless to say,I quickly became dazed and confused...not to mention just plain caught up in the frenzy of posts in the classifieds. That is until tonight, when my daughter emailed me and told me that I had better read your posts muahdib4 and RedDevil.Everything you guys said made ABSOLUTE SENSE!! The prices these breeders are asking for morph pythons are ABSURD, and it makes total sense that they cannot stay high for much longer. You guys are right on target when you pointed out how many breeders there are producing these morphs. I still want and still intend to purchase a morph ball python some day, but will definately wait for the prices to drop. I'm sure you two are not very popular among these breeders now. However, I want to sincerely thank you for sharing your extensive knowlege and personal thoughts on this morph craze...you have truly opened my eyes and I'm sure many others on this subject,and hopefully many more morph enthusiasts will hold off on purchasing until prices become more realistic for ALL of us and not just the breeders interested in making that FAST BUCK. Thank you!!! Don M.

There are quite a few morphs that I don't see dropping in price anytime soon. The Genetic Stripe, Platinum, Leucistic, and the Patternless will probably have high price tags for a LONG time. But if all you where looking for at the moment is a Pastel, you should be able to find some real cheap ones next year. This year I rememebr seeing an ad where they had hatchling males for $750. So I would imagine you would be able to find some at the price, and maybe even cheaper next year. You just have to look around for them. That's really the only morph I can see being that cheap next year.

It's good to see someone getting back into snakes again. I've always felt they were the most beautiful animals and I'm glad to see you're happy with your current BP. My intent was never to talk someone out of a purchase just to discuss the craze a little and it's really caught on more then I could have hoped. Some of the morphs are interesting but being someone who is into all kinds of snakes, I personally would never pay the prices. For something like a $1000 morph, I would rather buy a Womas python or a Madagascan ground boa. I've never been one to only own a single type of snake no matter what color or pattern they are. I currently own 7 different types of python and 10 different types of boas and I'm always looking for affordable CB breeding pairs of others. I'm just weird though and many people find 1 type they like and stick with it and like to find all the different colors and patterns and I have no problem with that as long as it makes them happy. In the end, it all comes down to whether or not the amount of money required is worth it to you personally. Season tickets to the Cubs would be worth a lot to me (Love them Cubbies) but to a Cardinals fan they'd be worthless. It's all about perspective which is what these discussions have been all about.

I don't think there is much disagreement that prices will eventually drop. There are a few examples of temporary increases in prices (ghosts due to combos, mojave's due to speculation that the super will be leucistic) but eventually they will come down as those willing to invest in them at the high price produce more. The only question is how low and how quick. My point is that it historically has taken years and years and I don't think we have seen any of them bottom out yet.

If you buy a $750 male pastel this year then you can start producing pastels with him earlier than if you wait until next year (assuming you also get some older females and have the skill to actually breed them). Even if the price was half next year (I don't think it will fall that quick - especially as it approaches the stabilization price) a year's production from a pastel male is worth more than the $375 difference. Even if they are $200 by the time you get them bred it will only take producing two a year earlier than if you waited to pay for the extra you spend buying this year. Pastel males have been known to produce a lot of pastels in a year if you have a good one and a good bunch of normal females. I'm not saying profit is assured but falling prices don't preclude it. As long as the fall is steady and slow (and it should be in a free market with slow producing ball pythons) good producers will do just fine. This is why people are willing to invest and more morphs get produced.

Also, as far as the platinum line being inbred. As a co-dominant line, it is probably much less inbred than most other morphs out there. It's just that it belongs to one of the few breeders who lets you know what he is breeding. Sure he has crossed a few relatives to try to figure out the genetics but it's only one generation so far and he originally crossed the imported male to a lot of different normal girls so he has a good base. The inbreeding I'd worry more about is multiple generation but we really haven't been breeding balls long enough to test the effects of that.

Randy, you just illustrated my point. Most of your post was refering to making money. Sure, you could get a more expensive snake right now and be able to "produce" (I don't really like to think of it as production) enough more animals after that to make your money back. It shouldn't be about the money! You should want to spend the money so you can have a wonderful pet for the next 30-40 years, not because you want a quick return. That basically sums up the problem I have with morphs.

It certainly isn't all about the money. Who is to say some people don't just like the animal? I like pretty much every BP morph there is, and if I was to buy one, I would certainly try to get atleast SOME of my money back. And some people don't even make much profit off of these snakes. A lot of people simply take the money they made selling the babies, and use it to buy more cages and snakes. that's pretty much all I want out of it. Enough money to buy new snakes and enclosures.

Also, I'm pretty sure Randy Remington was talking about money because that is pretty much what this entire thing was all about. Whether or not it is worth it to pay the high prices for these morphs.

My thoughts on the morphs...solely as a hobbyist...is that a person can easily get caught up in the uniqueness (spelling?)of these animals and then tend to "impulse" buy...GUILTY. I was not dissuaded to buy the Pastel Lemon by your comments...I fully intend to purchase some type of morph some day...but rather I came to the realization that one should not rush into a major purchase like this without truely considering all angles. As mentioned before, I am so glad I came across these dicussions by you the breeders,who showed me a whole other perspective on the subject of morphs. Of course, it all comes down to the mighty DOLLAR. These animals are worth what ever price someone is willing to pay... and the bottom line....how badly a person wants one. I, and I'm sure many others who would love to own a morph python, and who are on a fixed income,should try not to get TOO caught up in the "hoopla" and take it one step at a time. Lastly, would it be too imposing to ask you guys for advise and perhaps reccomendations when I feel the time is right for me to buy? Thanks again. Don M.

You are always welcome to ask any of us I'm sure when the time comes and you feel you're ready to purchase something. As far as the BP morphs go, I would probably let the others on here talk to you about those because I'm not a morph person. To me one BP is pretty much the same as another. I can always help with different types which is something I try to stay educated on but even there I'm sure some people know more than I do. My personal favorite snake that I own is my Coastal Carpet Python but I wouldn't recommend those for everyone or even for most people. They get 9'-10' but 13' isn't unheard of. Though at those lengths they shouldn't weigh much more then an adult redtail boa of 7'. They need room both ground and climbing which is why I only have the 1 pair. I can't dedicate any more room to them because of all the other species I have. I think, though, in the smaller species range my favorite would have to be either my spotted pythons or my ringed pythons. The only problem with ringed pythons is that they lose that brilliant orange color they have as babies and turn a really nasty brown but I always get excited when the babies hatch and I get to see all those little orange and black babies going everywhere.

Ryan,

Do you like morphs? For one reason or another a lot of people would like to own a piebald ball python. Sure there are a few snake keepers who actually don't like them and some of those who do might only want one for the potential profit but there are still tons of people who would like one as a pet. Where are all of those pet piebalds going to come from and if there aren't enough to go around how are we going to decide who gets them?

In a communist system people don't stay up late thinking of ways to work harder and smarter and produce more. This is why communism has failed. Our capitalist system provides the motivation for the best breeders to purchase a new morph and produce as many of them as quickly as possible with the best methods the industry can come up with. If ball python morphs didn't start out expensive there would be little hope that there would ever be enough of them produced for the average keeper to get one. A few lucky collectors would have them but they wouldn't bother with all the work of gathering big and genetically diverse groups of normal females, getting them all in condition and raising up huge numbers of het and in some cases even possible het babies. There would be slow growth in numbers but it would take forever to meet demand. It's a lot of work to produce enough of something this generally desirable. High initial prices get that work done as quickly as possible.

I actually think that a good time to get in might be near the stabilization price. On some of our budgets this might be the only time to get in. At least at that point they aren't going down in price any more and you could sell off your animals for what you paid for them if you change your mind. I think there is enough work involved in producing a morph ball python (i.e. captive bred and not a normal that can be produced through import) that few enough people will be willing to do it that the stabilization price will still be profitable for those who like to work with snakes and are good at it. At that point you are gambling less so the potential monetary rewards are less. I think nice ghosts, albinos, and even pastels are all reasonably safe investments right now. If you have more to gamble (there is always the chance of an animal not breeding or dieing) then there are more rare and/or more stunning morphs, which have the potential for a higher return on fewer animals.

Yep, like you said, money drives the market. In reality though, who buys the morphs when the prices are high? Can you honestly say that you know a lot of people who've purchased $20k, $10k or even $5k snakes as pets? The only ones who buy them at those prices are breeders or potential breeders. People who want to get rich quick. Maybe the market is just so different here in the midwest. I only know of 1 person who has bought ANY morphs of anything locally here and I hate to say it but he was also a drug addict and dealer looking to launder drug money and potentially make huge amounts to keep that going. He bought Redtail Boa morphs and has taken such horrible care of his animals that nobody will touch the babies. He's also lost more then half of his young to parasites and malnutrition and he won't sell them to anyone for less then market price for his unhealthy snakes. He isn't exactly someone I would call a friend and I really don't like the guy at all but I try to keep up with as much new stuff coming into my local market as I can. The reality of it is that average people buying a pet won't spend that kind of money and the majority of reptile people (around KC anyway) are people making less than $30k a year and have families. Maybe the midwest is just so far out of the reptile loop and people everywhere else don't think anything about dropping that kind of money for a pet but I doubt it. I tend to think of things from the "average guy" viewpoint. I was raised in a low income family and was always taught to be more frugal with my money and maybe that comes into play with the way I look at things. Maybe it's the fact that a lot of my dealings are with Petshops rather than online sellers and buyers and I don't really see the nationwide market. I still find it almost impossible to believe that people really spend that kind of money on a pet. If they do then I really feel sorry for the families of those people. They'll have to wait another couple of months before they can buy that gold-plated Ferrari or the new Private jet. I know my wife would absolutely KILL ME if I ever spent that kind of money on any animal regardless of potential cash return.