NEW BP MORPH!!!

what are you talking about?? It doesent matter what type of ball python you have, they all are awesome no matter if its normal or whatever.

I wonder why genetic mutations like albino or pied are morphs in your eyes but spiders and other prooven genetic mutations are normals for you???
Can you explain this for me?

Chris van Kalken
The Netherlands

Define proven genetic mutation then. The 3 BPs I have all have white underbellies. That's a proven genetic trait but that doesn't make mine anymore special then any other BP or does that mean that I could charge thousands for them and call them some silly name. To be a new "morph" there needs to be a remarkable difference most, not all, pastels and caramels look just like my normals except maybe a slight shade lighter but nothing worth hundreds of dollars more and spiders are simply normals with slimmer dark patterns and people pay high dollar for these MINOR differences. The BP Morph market is obnoxious. Just look at how many specialty breeders are doing it and most are doing it through inbreeding their stock leading to weaker animals. To quote Langerwerf on page 64 of the August 2004 issue of Reptiles "I, personally do not like color morphs, it is achieved by inbreeding, and gradually this will create weaker animals. Imagine a future where no wild animals can be shipped anymore into this country or out of the countries that export them now. Then we will depend and fall back on captive breeding only. It would be a pity if all we had were weakened, inbred animals." Inbreeding in humans leads to genetic mutations that are never good and it's no less true in animal breeding. I love the 3 BPs I have as well as my 30 or so other snakes all of which are healthy and I have a real problem with all the inbreeding going on to continue the "Morph Mania" happening right now. If you support it then it's your own business but I personally think it will damage the industry in the long run especially when people realize they are paying WAY to much for a snake morph that isn't really any different then the majority of the normals for sale at 1/10th the price.

yeah i agree. some of those ball python morphs can run $15,000!!! You could get a damn car with that. It's ridiculous.

It isn't that ridiculous. Say you bought 1.1 Albinos for $5,000. You raise them up and breed them together, and get around 5 eggs. Since it was Albino x Albino, all 5 babies should be albino. So once you sell them, you just made $11,500 (if you sold them at $2,300 each).

So instead of buying a car with that $5k, you made $11k. Then you can get yourself that car and have a few thousand left over.

Albino BPs I can understand a little but eventually the market will be right where albino Burms are. They used to be expensive too. So, say, you buy a pair of albino babies now for $11,000 and you wait the 2-3 years for them to reach sexual maturity then you breed them and finally almost another 6-7 months the babies are old enough to be sold but the market has died and now the babies are only worth a couple hundred. It would then take YEARS to regain the initial investment. Whereas you could have bought an adult proven breeding pair of normal BPs for $100-$150 and you get $50-$70 a piece for the same 5 babies and you've regained your investment and didn't have to waste all that initial cash. That and you can get normals from completely seperate bloodlines and the babies will be healthier but the odds of finding unrelated albino babies is still more difficult and you could be inbreeding and creating unhealthy babies. Take your pick, the relative uncertainty of "morphs" or breeding healthy, fantastic, easy to care for normals. Like I said before, albinos and pied's I understand a little but pastels, caramels, spiders and some of the others just are a little silly and I personally believe that these morphs will fade away into obscurity just like the popularity of the spotted python which I still really like and have eggs cooking for now.

The bp market isn't going like the burm market. Albino burms can produce over a 100 eggs so that's why the price went lower, but bps only produce a very small amount of eggs, thus the demand is higher and so is the price. You guys need to quit whining and face it.

True, the market will eventually dry up, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. You can't really compare them to Burmese Pythons. The only reason they became so cheap is because of how many eggs they lay. I don't really know anything about breeding Burms, but I'm sure they can easily lay 20 eggs. Ball Pythons usually have around 5 or 6.

It's true that some do resemble normals, but Caramels and Pastels don't (Spiders I can somewhat understand). You really have to see them in person to see just how different they are. Every Pastel I have seen in person was a very bright yellow, while photos I had seen of the same snakes didn't look nearly as good. And caramels have a purple colored pattern rather then black. But with others, (such as the Cinamon Pastel and the Yellowbelly) it isn't what they look like, but what they produce when bred together (and with other morphs). If you breed the Cinamon to another Cinamon you get a Black Patternless Ball Python, and if bred to a Pastel, you get the Pewter. With Yellowbellies, you get Ivory BPs when bred together, and Ebony BPs when bred to Granite.

You could make some money breeding normals, but not nearly as much. And if you don't have the money to get morphs, simply get hets. Thats what I did. I saved up $750 and bought a pair of het albinos. So when I breed them, I should get atleast one Albino, and if I sold it (I plan on holding them back the first year or 2), I made back all of the money I spent for the hets, food, vet visits, etc. Then I can take that money and put it into something worth even more, such as Genetic Stripes. Then once I breed those, I could get $20k a snake, and use that money to get even better snakes. And I can keep doing that until I get whatever snakes I like, and make a good amount of money while keeping them.

Yes, BPs produce fewer eggs but with the number of people breeding them then it will eventually go the same route. I guess you haven't noticed just the number of new breeders on kingsnake.com that have been listed in the last year and that over 90% of those new ones breed only BP or redtail boa morphs. More breeders = more snakes = saturated market = lower prices. It's basic economics. It happens to all "morphs" eventually. It happened to burms while they were the king of all snakes being sold but now that BPs are just about the #1 selling snake in the country, it will happen to them too. How else would you explain the fact that Burms produce more eggs and their prices are usually around $100 or so for normals and BPs produce fewer and their prices are anywhere from $25-$75 dollars for normals. This in itself disproves your theory.

There are still Burms worth alot. The Leucistic and the Axanthic Burmese haven't been for sale yet, and I'm sure once they are, they will be the price of some Ball Python morphs.

Even if the market did get saturated, and Albinos where only worth $500, all you would have to do is get yourself a few Albino females and 1 Albino male. So if you bred that one male to 7 females, and got 5 eggs each, you'd have 35 Albinos. Sell those for $500 each and you would still make $17,500.

Same thing goes for Burms. Get 2 Albinos, breed them, and get about 50 eggs. $200 x 50 Albino Burms = $10,000
Still not very bad.

Either way, I don't see the market crashing anytime soon.

On the subject of hets....it's a waste of time. #1 if you buy them without documents or guarantees...then I'll sell you a couple "hets" now....hee hee. #2 there is no guarantee on genetics with hets. I've seen people breed a 75% to a 100% het for albinos and get a big 0, zero, nada on the albinos. It took 3 years of breeding before they finally got 1 from that pair. #3 what do you do with the 1 you might get and hold back. Would you breed it back to one of the hets that were its sire and dam? That's of course inbreeding and one of my biggest problems with the market right now. It's a genetic dead-end kind of like (place your southern state here). I don't really like picking on particular states known for inbreed hillbillies so I'll let you fill in the spot above.

Yes, that is what I would do with it. Uness I had another $2k to spend on another Albino. Inbreeding in BPs doesn't seem to have any affects though (from what I have seen).

Also, there are no 75% hets. There are 100% (homo x normal/het), 66% (het x het), and 50% (het x normal). You are right about one thing though, it is easy to get scammed with hets. That's why you make sure the person is reputable before doing business with them. Paperwork doesn't mean anything. I could make "paperwork" for a few normals right now and make it say theyre 100% triple het for Black Patternless Leucistic Albino, doesn't mean they really are. The only real use for paperwork is for if you want to resell your hets that you got from a reputable breeder. This was there is no doubt that they really are hets.

Well RedDevil, of course you don't see the market crashing soon because it sounds like you're betting a lot of chips on the genetic draw and you want to make your money. Either way...why not breed more rare snakes such as the Madagascar ground boa or Womas or Blackheads or Sanzanias. These all bring good money and you don't have to worry about genetics mucking about in your money. People don't because the mind-set is..."must do Ball Pythons....make mind knumbing amounts of cash". It would be nice if the business world worked like that but it doesn't. Every fad wears itself out eventually and that's all this is. Next year some other snake will be the rage just like blood pythons were last year and now everybody is getting rid of those (at least here in Missouri).

Also, there are different lines of a lot of mutations. Every year Ghosts and Axanthics slip through the exporters and make it in with normal imports. And there are also people buying morphs straight from Africa to start there own lines.

Where in Missouri are u located? I am aginst inbreeding to. I have albino and leucistics aswell. I will not inbreed them to get more leucistics and albinos thew.

I'm not looking to get rich off of this, or make a living. The problem you seemed to be having is that you didn't think it was worth the money to get into it, so I tried to explain it that way. I honestly don't care if the market crashes. Alls that means is that I can get a Platty and a Leucistic alot faster.

And I do plan to breed other kind of snakes. I may be getting some Boas and Angolans, but first I am going to get some Eastern Hognose snakes. I would breed Womas, but I don't really like them. Ball Pythons have always been my favorite snake, followed closelt by Hognose and Angolans.